Seriously - FOUR Z's?

[2cute]

To 2Cute:

Having lots of interests.

Interest is what makes life worth living. To be filled with interest is to be filled with life. Watching the wonder of children. Before someone convinces them that they must put their brain to the grindstone and get serious about life.

If there is a God, Interest must be a compelling element to that God's makeup. Interest. Exploration. Constantly searching for something new.

Evolution suggests this to be true. A constant change. An abundance of creatures and abilities. All shapes and sizes trying to survive in so many environments. Always changing.

Worship fills us with a sense of peace and security. But, what do we worship? What qualities deserve our worship? Love, understanding...

Interest?

One should never chide oneself for being interested. Leonardo could spend hours examining how spit flowed down a wall. He marveled from examining the various patterns and speeds by which different birds flew. His few paintings were filled with accurate depictions of plants and rocks that could only come from personal observations. He was constantly interested in the sky, the land, water. He sought ways to make machines to conquer it all. Yet, he was flamboyant and frowned on by the moralists of his day.

We are surrounded by moralists and layers of sub-moralists who pressure us with what is good and bad, right and wrong. The moral judges try to convince us that this interest or that is wrong. That we should not waste time on gossamer when sackcloth covers us better.

Time herds us all through the gates of his slaughterhouse. We have but few moments. Moments to treasure. And interest provides the currency for that treasure.

We give up so much in our march through life. How sad that having "too many interests" can become a burden. More accurately, we have too little time, not too many interests.

Which forces us to choose. Choose where to invest those interests.

I commend your wide range of interests. Lift our glasses in celebration of your capacity to be interested. Shed a tear that some of those interests must fall to the wayside, but embrace with joy the life those interests represent.

Be kind to yourself. Those interests are what makes you so alive.

As for possessions. Not a single one has value without our interest. Our interest creates value, never the possession which lacks intrinsic value and depends utterly on us for providing that interest and value.

Cheers. A toast. To interest! To life! To Infinity and Beyond!

Well said Naboka (for both mine & floppers statements), thank you!

That's a very good point, hoarders lack the ability to organize their possessions so it ends up a big pile of unorganized stuff. Yet, collecting for the sake of collecting is what separates someone from a being a hoarder and being a collector, not just money. It takes money or time to collect & stuff your life with objects. In some cases people amass thousands of dollars worth of objects that hold no meaning only to collect dust in their environment. Whereas a collector chooses the items with a purpose. Or in my case I collected items that are/were related to the interest. Take my astronomy, I had posters, books, images, research, observation notebooks, binders filled with Messier data (tons of it) & knowledge collected, that was all related to my interest in Astronomy. It was kind of organized in boxes & on shelves. I read, observed, enjoyed collecting it but eventually it began to take up too much space. Plus Astronomy wasn't my only interest. I HAD to pare it down. I feel freer now that I own less of it. Plus since I no longer spend my time on it, I also have more time to do other things. Astronomy is a very time consuming hobby. So while I enjoyed it, I enjoy doing other things more. Like I still enjoy looking @ art. I have thousands of images in my computer. I change my desktop image almost daily as I have so many. I never get tired of looking @ beautiful images. Luckily the impact of these images is small on my physical life as they live almost exclusively inside my hard-drive. I do have physical images too. Yes, I do go through them periodically & purge (recycle), as I don't want to amass too much. So while to someone who doesn't 'collect' I am a hoarder with all my things that seem to not have a cohesive connection (because I have so many interests), I am aware of most of what I own. I feel less overwhelmed by it if I continue to make sure it doesn't clutter my life as really I don't need any of it. I could live (like that man I once knew) lean. Own only what's necessary to survive & forgo the rest.

By the way, Chide is my new word (hope I find it in a puzzle). I like it. I won't chide myself for my too many interests & so little time to learn it all.

[Naboka]

Thank you for sharing your experience. I also like the way you expressed yourself in the third person. I too had too many art supplies. In fact I had too many interests which generated too many supplies in general. It was really hard to pare myself down to just 5 interests. I miss some of the things I gave up, but I own far less stuff now. Maybe one day I'll give up gaming & go back to Astronomy as I really liked looking @ the stars & learning about Cosmology. Course the main reason I chose to delete it, as no matter how much time I spent on it, it was never enough. There was always more to learn, always more objects to observe, always more equipment to buy to see farther, clearer, sharper. That was a hard one to give up, especially when there's some kind of event. While I got rid of so much associated with it, I still own my telescope, associated pens, red lights, a couple binders & notebooks of data. I just couldn't part w/it. While I haven't even looked @ this stuff for now over 10 years, I still can't seem to part w/it. Its hard to rid 'yourself' of things that if not now, once gave joy & stimulated the mind.

You are certainly not alone in your obsessions.

To 2Cute:

Having lots of interests.

Interest is what makes life worth living. To be filled with interest is to be filled with life. Watching the wonder of children. Before someone convinces them that they must put their brain to the grindstone and get serious about life.

If there is a God, Interest must be a compelling element to that God's makeup. Interest. Exploration. Constantly searching for something new.

Evolution suggests this to be true. A constant change. An abundance of creatures and abilities. All shapes and sizes trying to survive in so many environments. Always changing.

Worship fills us with a sense of peace and security. But, what do we worship? What qualities deserve our worship? Love, understanding...

Interest?

One should never chide oneself for being interested. Leonardo could spend hours examining how spit flowed down a wall. He marveled from examining the various patterns and speeds by which different birds flew. His few paintings were filled with accurate depictions of plants and rocks that could only come from personal observations. He was constantly interested in the sky, the land, water. He sought ways to make machines to conquer it all. Yet, he was flamboyant and frowned on by the moralists of his day.

We are surrounded by moralists and layers of sub-moralists who pressure us with what is good and bad, right and wrong. The moral judges try to convince us that this interest or that is wrong. That we should not waste time on gossamer when sackcloth covers us better.

Time herds us all through the gates of his slaughterhouse. We have but few moments. Moments to treasure. And interest provides the currency for that treasure.

We give up so much in our march through life. How sad that having "too many interests" can become a burden. More accurately, we have too little time, not too many interests.

Which forces us to choose. Choose where to invest those interests.

I commend your wide range of interests. Lift our glasses in celebration of your capacity to be interested. Shed a tear that some of those interests must fall to the wayside, but embrace with joy the life those interests represent.

Be kind to yourself. Those interests are what makes you so alive.

As for possessions. Not a single one has value without our interest. Our interest creates value, never the possession which lacks intrinsic value and depends utterly on us for providing that interest and value.

Cheers. A toast. To interest! To life! To Infinity and Beyond!

[Naboka]

I'm very much enjoying the language, cadence and the words you are all using....isn't there something just lovely about Caran D'ache Museum Aquarelle, Shinola, Japanese garden shears, cosmology?

On our frosty walk this morning, the father of my offspring commented that the youngsters at work didn't understand what he meant when he commented that an "issue" they were having was a "storm in a teacup"....I'm not sure he was showing his age (56), or if our ever expanding language is losing some richness....somehow, "don't sweat the small stuff"/"non-issue" hasn't the same lyricism for me.

Lyricism.

Your partridge ode paralleling your friend's possessions to that Christmas oldie provided a ray of hope--at least, suggesting beneath it all existed something lyrical and structured.

The question remains: when does collecting become hoarding?

I have a friend whose closet is larger than most master bedrooms. Made with beautiful woods and exquisite lighting. More designer clothing and shoes than she could wear in a year. A stunning display. Nothing out of place. Precisely ordered. Breathtaking.

If she had less resources, less space, less ability to purchase individual items that were artworks in and of themselves, she would probably descend into hoardership. Her imagined small home would theoretically be filled with sale items from local department stores, piled wherever they lay, because she couldn't afford the designers and craftsmen to provide organization to convert her material possessions into a visual masterpiece.

On the internet, you can find artists who use junk to make art. Usually, the material is less important than the vision. How do we bring order and flow to these things so that our environment is more pleasing?

And, in the case of our living space, how to make that arrangement functional? How do we make it easier to find that friggin' screwdriver? Or brush. Or sock?

The internet is filled with information. Something of a social exercise in hoarderism. If we lacked a workable method of retrieving that information, it would provide us nothing but endless frustration. Just like when we get older and retrieving information that was once instantly available becomes more and more elusive. It's sitting in our brains somewhere, just not where we can find it until the next day when it falls into our cereal. Is the solution to have less information? The material (ideas/information) has to be organized and accessible for immediate use.

The idea I'm trying to weave together here is that quantity is not the culprit. Lack of space and lack of organization skills have some bearing. And, yes, there is that emotional element of being unable to let go of possessions for whatever reason. But, if you had enough space and sufficient organizational skill, you could own an impressive amount of stuff and easily access it. And, it could be beautiful.

We just celebrated the 4th of July. Fireworks exploding all across the horizon. Millions of dollars worth. We watched the dazzle from a hilltop commanding the sky. So much. So very, very much. Breathtaking. Quantity on quantity on quantity.

Watching Megaword play a game and pile up words? Quantity on quantity on quantity.

Large stores are filled with stuff. Floor after floor of stuff. Racks and racks of clothing. Cases and cases of items. Yet, we never walk in and think, "these people are hoarders." Because there is plenty of space and it's organized attractively.

Jay Leno owns over 250 cars and motorcycles. All in perfect shape and housed with plenty of space. "Hoarder" probably doesn't appear in articles about his collection.

My wife's artist friend (that she helped moved) lost her step dad a couple of years ago. He had a farm in Iowa with lots of buildings to house his collection of cars. Probably 50 classic vehicles. But, the stepdad lacked Leno's resources so every surface wasn't spit shined. Dust loves farms. "Hoarder" came up frequently in discussions about him.

We live in a society that pushes the idea of "plenty." The more you have, the better. The faster you run, the better. The more money you have, the better. Records, records, records. We're on a site that publishes our records. Most words, best words, highest average. We finally score 400 points and then want to score 450, then 500. Reach 500 and it's on to 600 then 700. We reach a 1,000 and lament our inability to match Megaword.

Accumulation and competition are social mindsets. Maybe part of our mental DNA. Infectious. And evolution is such that some handle infections better than others.

I wonder if hoarders simply lack an ability to organize relative to their possessions. They're trying to multiply 5 digit numbers in their minds and have no idea how to organize the accumulating quantities. Multiplying 3x7 is relatively simple. But 87649 x 38263? It all becomes a jumble. A physical jumble. Piles and piles of disassociated figures.

Well, this is getting too long. Too much. Quantity on quantity. Simple is good.

Though, simple is relative. Some people find multiplying 472 x 638 in their minds simple.

Doesn't mean they can also make a good apple pie.

[bwt1213]

Ah -- "tempest in a teacup" might have rung some bells. Probably not, though. "I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." Shakespeare was a quantum physicist before there were physicists or the idea of quanta. And a topologist, besides, before topology. But I suspect it is a small pot. and soon hot.

[floppers]

I'm very much enjoying the language, cadence and the words you are all using....isn't there something just lovely about Caran D'ache Museum Aquarelle, Shinola, Japanese garden shears, cosmology?

On our frosty walk this morning, the father of my offspring commented that the youngsters at work didn't understand what he meant when he commented that an "issue" they were having was a "storm in a teacup"....I'm not sure he was showing his age (56), or if our ever expanding language is losing some richness....somehow, "don't sweat the small stuff"/"non-issue" hasn't the same lyricism for me.

[2cute]

Venting.

Sometimes a useful thing. You and my wife could share stories.

Her husband is a bit of a hoarder. He has over 3,000 colored pencils from Caran D'ache, Derwent, Faber Castell, Prisma Color.

Last year he bought the Caran D'ache Museum Aquarelle wooden boxed special edition and found the pencils so beautiful he couldn't bring himself to use them. His solution? Buy another set of them. Which was also too beautiful to use. So he bought the set again in the normal tin set and left the special edition box sets to gather dust amongst the many other special edition wooden boxed sets stacked on his shelves.

Did he learn?

As soon as Derwent came out with their full lightfast line, he bought the special edition boxed set, found it too beautiful to use, etc. And repeated the process.

Not to mention the papers, canvases, paints, brushes, inks, blah, blah. He has almost 200 notebooks on the shelves in his art studio. Moleskine, Leuchtturm, Shinola. Alls sizes and colors. Most will never see pen or pencil.

She has him working in the garage now, trying to clean out the seemingly endless tools he's accumulated "just in case he needs it." Seventeen hand saws, (which, except for a couple of specialized Japanese woodworking saws are completely irrelevant in the battery operated tool age) are ready to go to the building charity store. Hammers, pliers, squares, levels, etc.

He also had a drawer filled with Felco and Japanese garden shears of every sort. She convinced him to give most of them to the kids and neighbors. Her argument, "you only have two hands and only one of them uses the shears." His argument, "they're so beautiful. Look at the precision, the craftsmanship."

My wife's best friend is also an artist hoarder which absorbed my wife's time for over a week sorting, weeding, getting her moved to California. What in the world is wrong with that woman I married? She needs to find people who are less needy.

Thank you for sharing your experience. I also like the way you expressed yourself in the third person. I too had too many art supplies. In fact I had too many interests which generated too many supplies in general. It was really hard to pare myself down to just 5 interests. I miss some of the things I gave up, but I own far less stuff now. Maybe one day I'll give up gaming & go back to Astronomy as I really liked looking @ the stars & learning about Cosmology. Course the main reason I chose to delete it, as no matter how much time I spent on it, it was never enough. There was always more to learn, always more objects to observe, always more equipment to buy to see farther, clearer, sharper. That was a hard one to give up, especially when there's some kind of event. While I got rid of so much associated with it, I still own my telescope, associated pens, red lights, a couple binders & notebooks of data. I just couldn't part w/it. While I haven't even looked @ this stuff for now over 10 years, I still can't seem to part w/it. Its hard to rid 'yourself' of things that if not now, once gave joy & stimulated the mind.

You are certainly not alone in your obsessions.

[Naboka]

The move is complete now, and my friend has been working hard at "rationalising" by...yep!! donating a lot of things to local charity stores (they give her 20 per cent off when she buys more things, but she is being a bit more practical about: what she needs, what she can sell, and where she can store it...it's a small step, but it is progress). She is getting some "psychological salary" from making donations, so that's good too.

We have had long conversations about why she feels the need to have so much stuff, and from what I can work out, it's like a "safety net"/security blanket type of thing. She had quite an unusual childhood, and there was a lot of "making do", and she was never allowed to leave the table until her meal was totally finished. That she is now securely employed as a theatre nurse, that she has successfully raised two young men, and can pay her own way - not just the basics, but for things that she wants and likes - does not seem to relieve her of the need to have that security, which at the same time causes her anxiety (moving house was quite confronting for her, because I think she had been able to make herself blind to a lot of it).

I am the opposite of a hoarder, so I was probably the best person to help her create some order, and get her through it...I was just venting a little here, because I found it fairly stressful, lucky for me, I have wordtwist therapy for the things I can't process any other way!

Venting.

Sometimes a useful thing. You and my wife could share stories.

Her husband is a bit of a hoarder. He has over 3,000 colored pencils from Caran D'ache, Derwent, Faber Castell, Prisma Color.

Last year he bought the Caran D'ache Museum Aquarelle wooden boxed special edition and found the pencils so beautiful he couldn't bring himself to use them. His solution? Buy another set of them. Which was also too beautiful to use. So he bought the set again in the normal tin set and left the special edition box sets to gather dust amongst the many other special edition wooden boxed sets stacked on his shelves.

Did he learn?

As soon as Derwent came out with their full lightfast line, he bought the special edition boxed set, found it too beautiful to use, etc. And repeated the process.

Not to mention the papers, canvases, paints, brushes, inks, blah, blah. He has almost 200 notebooks on the shelves in his art studio. Moleskine, Leuchtturm, Shinola. Alls sizes and colors. Most will never see pen or pencil.

She has him working in the garage now, trying to clean out the seemingly endless tools he's accumulated "just in case he needs it." Seventeen hand saws, (which, except for a couple of specialized Japanese woodworking saws are completely irrelevant in the battery operated tool age) are ready to go to the building charity store. Hammers, pliers, squares, levels, etc.

He also had a drawer filled with Felco and Japanese garden shears of every sort. She convinced him to give most of them to the kids and neighbors. Her argument, "you only have two hands and only one of them uses the shears." His argument, "they're so beautiful. Look at the precision, the craftsmanship."

My wife's best friend is also an artist hoarder which absorbed my wife's time for over a week sorting, weeding, getting her moved to California. What in the world is wrong with that woman I married? She needs to find people who are less needy.

[floppers]

The move is complete now, and my friend has been working hard at "rationalising" by...yep!! donating a lot of things to local charity stores (they give her 20 per cent off when she buys more things, but she is being a bit more practical about: what she needs, what she can sell, and where she can store it...it's a small step, but it is progress). She is getting some "psychological salary" from making donations, so that's good too.

We have had long conversations about why she feels the need to have so much stuff, and from what I can work out, it's like a "safety net"/security blanket type of thing. She had quite an unusual childhood, and there was a lot of "making do", and she was never allowed to leave the table until her meal was totally finished. That she is now securely employed as a theatre nurse, that she has successfully raised two young men, and can pay her own way - not just the basics, but for things that she wants and likes - does not seem to relieve her of the need to have that security, which at the same time causes her anxiety (moving house was quite confronting for her, because I think she had been able to make herself blind to a lot of it).

I am the opposite of a hoarder, so I was probably the best person to help her create some order, and get her through it...I was just venting a little here, because I found it fairly stressful, lucky for me, I have wordtwist therapy for the things I can't process any other way!

[2cute]

I come from a family of people who can't throw anything away. My father keep tons of paper & spent his life organizing it into binders and folders. Thats how he enjoyed his time. My mother thinks everything can be fixed & maybe so, but we don't know that skilled person. So instead of me trashing it, I store it in the attic. My uncle same thing, when he passed away it was me who had to go through this gigantic box of all kinds of items he never touched (including never opened holiday cards). They were dirty & dusty. Every couple hours I had to go outside just to breathe fresh air as I felt ill going through that box. The nurses @ his facility said he'd never let anyone touch that box. I guess those were his treasures. All of my father's siblings same thing, they kept things as a comfort to their lives. My grandmother too.

My point is that this is a mental condition & guess what? Yep, I have it too. No, I'm not as bad as them as I am aware of it. I'm really careful about what I buy. I don't accept 'free' things as I know it'll be hard for me to rid myself of it. I definitely need to own less stuff & I throw away something everyday, because I don't want to be a hoarder who can't part with these things that suffocate my life. Sometimes I watch that show (Hoarders Buried Alive), & yell @ the screen 'Get rid of it' and then after just one episode, I get up & get rid of something.

I knew a man once who owned pretty much nothing. It was amazing. I helped him move twice & we did it in an afternoon, both times. He didn't need much. He chose to live lean. He was the opposite of me & so many other people. He felt the more you own, the less free is your life. He was right. I don't think I'll ever be him, but I'll never forget how little he valued things. It was certainly a different perspective on the world.

[mdyak]

Don't be so quick to say "no one has that problem".

I actually said "a problem that you don't happen to have." So much easier to think about others' bad habits than our own and to be righteous about it. I'm guessing when your uncle died, relatives saw to it that all his stuff went some place where it could be used... took a while to get there, but it made it. Meanwhile studies show that confronting hoarders does not help them change. Judgment and confrontation give a sense of satisfaction to the judger and confronter, but rarely produce any lasting change. Kindness, curiosity, openness, truly wanting to understand, all have proven track records in shifting stubborn realities. Try it... you might like it.

[bwt1213]

One of my uncles had that problem. He died unexpectedly. The house looked like a bargain room at a thrift store -- room after room with racks, all filled with clothes he'd never worn. There were dozens of coats, hundreds of shirts, boots and shoes beyond counting. Name it, and he had not just duplicates, but scores of them. Don't be so quick to say "no one has that problem". I'll bet someone DOES. Now think what that money spend COULD have done. The homeless it could have fed. The vaccinations it could have funded. The books it could have bought. I'm not concerned with making someone feel bad. I'm concerned with making others feel good. If you have too much money, don't spend it on yourself. Spend it on someone who needs a hand, and there are billions of such people. That's what bothers me about hoarding. Sometimes, being gentle is not being kind.

[mdyak]

Hoarders always have a reason for everything, too. It was a really good price. I always liked that, You can never have too much. I forgot I had one of those (everyone has a time when they forgot something like that). It's an illness; everyone has an illness and mine is pretty harmless. It goes on for quite a while, until someone sets them straight by telling them straight up that they are SICK and need treatment, and that everyone who sees them is laughing at them and their stupid "reasons". Thing is, a hoarder who is far enough gone will reject reality, reject logic, reject help, and protest being sent to a place where they will get help involuntarily. They like being hoarders. They they they're normal.

Wow! Doesn't it feel great to spin out on someone else's problem that you don't happen to have! We are all suffering in one way or another, so be kind... or at least zoom out and look at western civilization. Bunch of hoarders, if you ask me. And the solution? Throwaway culture. That way nobody sees how much of the planet's resources we've used up. It's a complicated world and tough to know just what is right, but let's all be gentle while we're muddling through.

[bwt1213]

I meant to say "They THINK they're normal."

[bwt1213]

Hoarders always have a reason for everything, too. It was a really good price. I always liked that, You can never have too much. I forgot I had one of those (everyone has a time when they forgot something like that). It's an illness; everyone has an illness and mine is pretty harmless. It goes on for quite a while, until someone sets them straight by telling them straight up that they are SICK and need treatment, and that everyone who sees them is laughing at them and their stupid "reasons". Thing is, a hoarder who is far enough gone will reject reality, reject logic, reject help, and protest being sent to a place where they will get help involuntarily. They like being hoarders. They they they're normal.

[floppers]

hmmm, well...that is just her personal stuff...she has maybe 30 handbags and 30 pairs of shoes...12 stripey tshirts, 11 similar frypans, 10 bluetooth speakers, 9 different comforters, 8 stick type mixers, 7 wooden chopping boards, 6 televisions, 5 iiiice cube makerssssss, 4 kettle bbq's, 3 toilet brushes, 2 adult sons, and a cockatoo feeder in a pine tree. She just has a lot of things.

Then she has her online second hand items selling items....