Offensive Quotes

[maradnu]

Maybe I am a little bit touchy, but I ran into the following quote tonight.

"Christianity is completed Judaism or it is nothing." — Benjamin Disraeli

As a Jew, I find that EXTREMELY offensive.

As I recall, Ann Coulter got in a great deal of trouble for saying something like that a few months ago.

The remark was deemed anti-semitic then. What makes it okay for this site now?

What is next - various quotes from Christian ministers calling Islam a religion of hate? Perhaps others demeaning Buddhism or Hinduism?

[TONY BOY]

offensive quote

I don't see why you find it offensive, since it is more a historic comment, made by a Jew, who for whatever reason converted to the Anglican Church. It isn't meant as a "statement of fact", but tells us more about Disraeili, than anything else. There are a lot of offensive, or just silly quotes on this site. I just solve them, and move on. I say that as one whose mother's family was Jewish. If I thought about it, I would be offended by various "atheist" qoutes on this site. But I am not getting my theology, nor my philosophical education here, just entertaining myself. There have been some offensive quotes about the Catholic Church, and Christianity in general, here. So what? I just solve them and move to the next one.

[maradnu]

Offensive comment

Tony,

I see many pro-Christian quotes on the site, and ignore them as we both do the occasional atheistic quote. There is a difference between that which promotes and that which belittles or demeans.

The fact that you do not profess Judaism plays no small part, I'm sure, in your feeling that the comment is just hunky-dory. Disraeli was a Christian of Jewish ancestry, (as you would seem to be) which did not give him any right to belittle the religion of his ancestors. The fact is, that the comment does attempt to belittle Judaism, to say that it is less than Christianity.

That it may be historical is of no consequence. Also historical are many other even far more offensive quotes.

Any comment which belittles or demeans another group, whether religious, racial, or whatever, has no place on a recreational site. Let bigots use their own sites to push that #$%&* to other bigots.

That has no place here. IMHO

[TONY BOY]

quote....

All I can suggest is: if you find it offensive, ask Stephen to purge it from the system. I notice quite a few Bible quotes, both from the Old and the New Testment, which aren't properly cited, but listed as "unattributed". To me, this is kind of offensive. If it is from the Bible, it should be noted as such. But to be honest, I just don't think about it. There are a few quotes calling popes and priests derogatory names. They are usually from someone like Shelly, or others who were anti-religious bigots. But we know that, and it is only a quote from them, not an endorsement, one way or the other. As far as I am concerned, anything from Milan Kundera should be purged from the site because he is not only stupid, but never makes any sense about anything. But that is just me.

[jdege]

Tony,

I see many pro-Christian quotes on the site, and ignore them as we both do the occasional atheistic quote. There is a difference between that which promotes and that which belittles or demeans.

I don't think that anyone who is familiar with Disraeli could reasonably interpret him as having intended to belittle or demean Judaism.

"In all these church discussions, we are apt to forget that the second Testament is avowedly only a supplement. Jehovah-Jesus came to complete the 'law and the prophets.' Christianity is completed Judaism, or it is nothing. Christianity is incomprehensible without Judaism, as Judaism is incomplete; without Christianity. What has Rome to do with its completion; what with its commencement? The law was not thundered forth from the Capitolian mount; the divine atonement was not fulfilled upon Mons Sacer. No; the order of our priesthood comes directly from Jehovah; and the forms and ceremonies of His church are the regulations of His supreme intelligence. Rome indeed boasts that the authenticity of the second Testament depends upon the recognition of her infallibility. The authenticity of the second Testament depends upon its congruity with the first. Did Rome preserve that? I recognize in the church an institution thoroughly, sincerely, catholic: adapted to all climes and to all ages. I do not bow to the necessity of a visible head in a defined locality; but were I to seek for such, it would not be at Rome. I cannot discover in its history however memorable any testimony of a mission so sublime. When Omnipotence deigned to be incarnate, the Ineffable Word did not select a Roman frame. The prophets were not Romans; the apostles were not Romans; she, who was blessed above all women, I never heard she was a Roman maiden. No, I should look to a land more distant than Italy, to a city more sacred even than Rome."

[bansaisequoia]

Censorship?

I don't particularly like this quote from Disraeli, and I did give it an offensive rating. However, I'm not sure I'd call on Stephen to remove it from the site. I don't think anyone's espousing any beliefs or opinions here. There are so many quotes by myriad notables who contradict each other, that it's obvious no particular ideology is being promoted. I see all sorts of quotes I don't like by Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Niccolo Machiavelli,Aleister Crowley et alii, but I'll never demand that Stephen remove anything.

[smoochie222]

Hypocrite

maradnu or jack steely or drama nut

I am offended by you. You are "somebody feigning high principles: somebody who pretends to have admirable principles, beliefs, or feelings but behaves otherwise". You didn't take the time to find the origin of the quote and then you posted highly inflammatory offensive quotes.

This is after all, just a game.

Love, Hope, Peace, and Charity

[maradnu]

jdege

I stand by my position on the quote, however much additional of Disraeli that you may include. To say that Christianity is completed Judaism is to say that Judaism is incomplete. To say that Judaism is incomplete is to say that it is inferior to Christianity, that is lower in station or importance. To belittle is to portray something as less important. And that is exactly what Disraeli was attempting to do. He was saying that Judaism laid the groundwork, but that Christianity is the full flowering of G-d's message, and effectively that Judaism is missing the rest, is incomplete, and inferior.

[maradnu]

smoochie

I love you too.

The point of the inflammatory quotes is that just because something is "historical" does not make it okay to say.

I find all those quotes, including the Disraeli to be offensive.

Cryptograms are 'just a game', and I do not come to this site to see my religion belittled.

Ann Coulter said something similar to the Disraeli quote, and got in hot water for it, deservedly in my opinion. The quote on Islam and Mohammed was used by Pope Benedict in a speech, and he was deservedly criticized for it. The other two quotes I listed are revolting beyond words, but unfortunately there have been and still are people who believe such.

The fact that people said these things does not mean any of them, including the Disraeli, should be on this site, which is the point I was trying to make, which seems to have escaped you.

[jdege]

I find all those quotes, including the Disraeli to be offensive.

I find censorship to be offensive, and would be offended should any quotes be removed from this site simply because someone was offended by them.

So, tell me, why should the administrators of this site worry more about your being offended than about me being offended?

[smoochie222]

Nothing escaped me

You made your point in an ugly, unneccessary way. There are plenty of misogynistic quotes that I don't like, so I mark them as offensive. I prefer to play the game without censorship. Posting other offensive quotes to make a point is being hypocritical, hurtful, and full of hate. BTW, I change the channel when Ann Coulter is on.

[maradnu]

jdege

"I find censorship to be offensive, and would be offended should any quotes be removed from this site simply because someone was offended by them."

Then if the truly revolting quotes in my one post (or even worse things) should be put as cryptograms on this site, they should be left?

General principle (in most of western society) is that hate speech is not protected. One person's right to free speech ends when it encroaches on another person's right to a safe and secure life. Far too often, more serious anti-semitic acts start with mildly anti-semitic statements and escalate from there.

You may think what you wish, and may say what you wish, however hateful, on any number of forums, on-line and off. This is an entertainment site, and quotes which disparage any group of people, whether racial, national, religious, or whatever, has no place on this site. JMHO

[TONY BOY]

Hate speech....

I'm a lawyer, and I've got to tell you that Disraeli quote is hardly hate speech, and it doesn't threaten you in any way. How about this: "Lord, confound this surly sister, blight her brow with blotches blister, cramp her larynx, lung and liver, in her guts a galling give her." J. M. Synge .... maybe just s little hateful toward women? If we start purging quotes from this site, there is won't be any left. Someone would be offended by "Mary had a little lamb...." Women's rights groups because she only got a lamb and not a cow, and PETA because there was an animal in a subservient position.

[maradnu]

smoochie

Yes, I am full of hate, when I see or hear a group of people being disparaged. If I am a part of the group being disparaged, I am also defensive. When I hear my religion being belittled, I take offense. I also take offense at other religions and their adherents being demeaned. Do I go overboard in my response? Sometimes.

However offensive the quotes I used, I was arguing ideas and principles. I did not engage in personal attacks or name calling. Maybe you should take a hard look in the mirror.

Peace,
Jack

[maradnu]

Tony

The Disraeli quote is pretty mild as anti-semitic remarks go, but it is still anti-semitic. Ain't just me what thinks so, but when Ann Coulter made a similar remark, lots of folks seemed to think so.

As a lawyer, you understand that there are lots of gray areas in human behavior and human actions. For the protection of various parts of society, lines must still be drawn, and then we can argue over the gray areas.

I do not want to strip the site of any quotes, any more than I want the truly revolting quotes that I brought up to be on the site. Where do we draw the line? How do we decide what belongs here and what does not? G-d knows there is plenty of free speech in our society, and plenty of people making very revolting remarks. Can we not have a few refuges from the turmoil and just have some inoffensive entertainment?