Quotes by disgraced heroes

[aerie]

I solved the following Bill Crosby cryptogram today, and the comments inspired me to start this thread.

"Sigmund Freud once said, "What do women want?" The only thing I have learned in fifty-two years is that women want men to stop asking dumb questions like that."
— Bill Cosby

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
dovid1946 on 2015-01-02 04:07:08
well, we know what they don't want, Bill, and that is you.

mtvoyager on 2015-03-15 20:54:46
71 seconds. I left out the stupid q and hit check and lost about ten seconds. I hate that. Yeah, cause he's a perv.

judy100 on 2015-03-20 03:24:43
Women did not want his sexual attacks!

CarpeLanam on 2016-03-07 09:37:50
This woman would like the Cosby quotes removed, if that's possible. What a creep!

abra on 2016-04-28 14:11:37
It's strange to read the comments on Cosby quotes. You can see the point at which the news broke, and he was no longer the beloved figure that he had been.

MamaB on 2016-10-16 06:21:57
ERROR: This man is a rapist. Anything that has me evaluate what he thinks about women is offensive.

zengard on 2017-06-02 14:27:46
I vote for no more Cosby quotes.

Lily H on 2017-08-21 11:25:34
He also apparently didn't learn what "NO" means because he had to resort to drugs and rape.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________

Since our society is currently outing even more sexual predators from their positions of power, is it possible that cryptograms.org could do a "spring cleaning" and toss out the quotes by Bill Cosby? To leave them in place is to pretend that he is still an honorable person. To remove them sends the message that we do not tolerate this behavior.

As a woman, I have experienced workplace harassment. For years, women were not listened to if they complained.

What do you think about this?

[GtrZan]

I don't disagree at all, but like many things where do we draw the line?

Case by case basis I'd assume? (by Author in general, not quote)

[Descifrador]

I don't disagree at all, but like many things where do we draw the line?

Exactly! For example, I find some of the things Walt Whitman wrote about Black people and Mexico/Mexicans (I'm assuming to give support from the intellectual class to the US government during the Mexican-American war / Invasion of Mexico), disgusting.



Still, I wouldn't propose banning Whitman's quotes entirely.

Personally, I only object to quotes that are sexually explicit or slanderous against ethnicities, religions, nationalities, a particular gender or sexual orientations, regardless of who authored them.

[Roxanne]

There'd have to be some really close examination of the context on a case-by-case basis. When a quotation is attributed to an author of fiction, it looks as though it's the author's actual opinion when often it's said by a character in the author's work. Sometimes this can be really misleading: for instance -- not a very good example -- a hypothetical quotation attributed to Mark Twain, but lifted from a speech by Huck Finn's father Pap.

As for quotations from real people speaking for themselves -- I don't think it's such a good idea to expunge all quotations attributed to those people who've done things we hate and whom we therefore despise. It's important for people to realize and remember that there are/were people in the world who have done admirable and also despicable things, so we can keep reviewing whether we should forgive them or not (and why we do or don't forgive them).

Also, drawing the line for what is disgusting would be difficult. Given the inequality in the US today, I find sayings from relatively contemporary people like 'success will always come if you work hard enough' or 'there's nothing in the world you can't do if you just remember that the sun is shining somewhere' just as wrong as Walt Whitman's denigrating Mexico roughly a century and a half ago.

[marnita]

I don't like the Crosby quotes either, but if we can tolerate quotes from Hitler and the Marquis de Sade, I suppose we can tolerate these as well. Basically, I value the variety on this site enough to put up with quotes from anybody, however much I may disagree with them. And sometimes the worst quotes lead to the best discussion in the comments.

[LLapp]

Given the issues already raised in this thread, I believe the best realistic solution is for the site to offer these two features:

1. Give all users the option to "hide offensive quotes," and be shown only those puzzles rated low for offensiveness.

2. Collect offensiveness data by asking users to rank individual quotes for offensiveness.

Those two features are already available.

Granted, if you opt to hide offensive quotes, you may still see some quotes that offend you, such as those from recently disgraced people. For those, you can rate them as offensive and move on, and then maybe that quote will later be hidden from your view, if enough people rate it as you did. Or you can choose to skip the quote when you see an offending name -- at the price of losing your shot at a 100% solve rate.

I guess you just have to choose your poison -- be offended, or give up the chance for a 100% solve rate.

Also:

"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion." ~ Henry Steele Commager

"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." ~ Noam Chomsky

"Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so, too." ~ Voltaire

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." ~ Evelyn Beatrice Hall, The Friends of Voltaire, 1906

[gryhnd51]

I completely agree with LLapp's position. There are many quotes that I personally dislike & vehemently disagree with, but it is only when I forget that I'm PLAYING A GAME that I fall into the trap of reacting negatively.
I don't believe the purpose of solving crytograms is to enlighten us. Like all other games, it is meant to challenge our brains while having some fun.

[SavvyChile]

hi! just found this comment section and appreciate everyone's responses! wanted to add that, like the r.e.lee statues et al, these things are a part of our heritage, our history, our evolution as a species. not everything twain wrote is considered pc today, but back then, it was how it was. sure, sometimes these things are offensive and we'd rather not be exposed to them, but they are a part of our reality and pretending that slavery or racism was never acceptable is counterproductive to progress. it is folks who want to romanticize the civil war and minimize slavery that won't understand why some other folks want memorials to these ideas removed or relocated. the folks who want these tributes removed have valid reasons, but, these monuments also serve as reminders of the atrocities we committed, such as the memorials to victims of the holocaust in germany - the presentation has great impact. not everyone quoted here was ever a hero or otherwise honorable, some quotes are just silly things mr unattributed had to say at some unspecified point in time. it is nice to be able to sanitize our exposure to certain elements - we have a dvr because i don't like ads, for example - but being exposed to and aware of viewpoints that we disagree with is necessary to continue to learn and grow - especially in this world of info wars, so to speak. there are reasons for why everyone thinks differently, be it their religion, ancestry, color, region, age/era, gender, etc... and it's all part of living in this big ol' world. we are all different, and we built the usa on the idea that all men are created equal, and we all have the right to freedom of speech. personally, sure, i'd rather not hear from any biased or radical political pundit, bigot, or otherwise jerk (all things being subjective), but, i won't learn about the world and what's going on if i close my eyes to everything i find objectionable. ok, it's a game, it should be fun and relaxing, well, as it stands we cannot avoid every quote we may not like, and mebbe sometimes it's the comments that are best avoided lol. just me thoughts, thanks for bringing up this subject. have a great day!

[writeon]

My Two-Cents Worth

Whereas I am in total agreement with Llapp, Gryhnd51, and Sippygurl, I wouldn't mind the administrator posting more meaningful quotes and removing the less inspiring ones by Unattributed and other nauseating flowery ones.

In the early 90s, PeeWee Herman was found exposing himself in a theater, and now he has his own TV series, but just because I solve a quote by him or Michael Jackson, Harvey Weinstein, or O.J. Simpson, it doesn't mean I embrace their behavior. So yes, I'd prefer quotes from higher caliber personalities, but I'd rather not get into a censorship war. Someone pointed out Walt Whitman's comments about Mexicans, but Mexico was even more lawless back then, and it's government has been rooted in outward corruption for generations. I'm of Mexican-American descent and Whitman is one of my favorite writers.

I'd like to see a more selective process that includes more intellectually thought provoking quotes, humorous quotes that give me a genuine smile, inspirational and motivational quotes that aren't cheesy, and rare quotes that make me say, "Wow, I never heard that before" or "I didn't know that person is the one who said that."

And may I add to all the others who mentioned they love to read the comments, count me in on that group, too.

[Descifrador]

Someone pointed out Walt Whitman's comments about Mexicans, but Mexico was even more lawless back then, and it's government has been rooted in outward corruption for generations. I'm of Mexican-American descent and Whitman is one of my favorite writers.

Me, me. I did.

Just to clarify: To be sure, it is not the insinuation that our government was corrupt, that was insulting. He was providing this "intellectual" argument in support of the US government's war and invasion of Mexico, simply put: "These people are not worthy of populating territory. We are".

[LLapp]

The dialogue in those last two comments from writeon and Descifrador are a wonderful example of why I am all for including quotes that some may find offensive. The players' responses and dialogue in the comment box shed light on the context of the quote and what, exactly, may be offensive about it. People here share information and thought-provoking insights that I would not have had the chance to read if the quote had been omitted from the site.

[imported_Lurker]

I agree about keeping quotes from controversial figures as a way to create a dialogue and teach, as much as it might hurt to see one from a fallen hero (or horrible person from history) that contradicts his personal actions. But what about insipid quotes that never should have been here in the first place. Justin Bieber and Charlie Sheen? Not offensive, just idiotic. Should have a rating section of its own.